As it is usual with such features, only excerpts of this interview were used for the magazine.
So here is for the first time the complete interview, in case you are interested.
The questions address a variety of things, such as my personal history with the Hardcore scene, but also politics, activism, racism and gender topics.
RM: How did you become interested in various hardcore styles and what inspires you musically?
LE: It started in 1995 I was 14 and the Techno/Rave wave swept over Europe, and was at its first high, and I got into that sound and totally loved it. It was really a sound that was everywhere in Germany at that point, on the radio, on TV, in the newspapers and so on. I heard there was a sound called "Hardcore", and was very curious about it, but I did not really know was it was. The people I knew listened mostly to "lighter"/more happy Rave styles, and I went along with that. But my curiosity about Hardcore grew bigger and bigger. Then, one night I was watching MTV's Party Zone, and Alec Empire was on there, presenting "Digital Hardcore" - I neither knew who he was or what Digital Hardcore meant. They showed some videos, and when I saw the video to Atari Teenage Riot - Speed, it was like I was hit over my head with a club, it was a life changing moment. Not only the sound, but the visuals to it - the video showed ATR playing in a squat, going completely berserk. I felt I wanted to be there, to get to this sound, to be part of it.
I then started buying Hardcore compilations that were available in music store chains, such as Thunderdome, Terrordrome, Cyberdrome (a Mokum compilation).
Through the internet I then learned there was a hidden level / subculture to the Hardcore world as I (and the public) perceived it, not just the typical Gabber sound of ID&T and other labels (keep in mind Gabber was really big and mainstream back then - I think every German kid my age knew about Thunderdome and more), but that there were also labels such as Industrial Strength, Fischkopf, Anticore... and this was the sound I got into, and that I ended up feeling a lifelong love towards.
Inspiration right now comes from a lot of things. Music wise the inspiration comes from many different genres, such as Detroit Techno or Chiptune or Indie Rock... but also movie scores or avant-garde music like Stockhausen and Schoenberg.
I think there is something inspiring to be found in any genre.
But the music inspiration is just a small part; I think right now, in our culture, there is a tendency of art, including movies, books, comics becoming more psychedelic, and in a sense, more "Hardcore", and this is a big, big inspiration. There are now movies for mainstream audiences that are very "out there" such as Inception or Dr. Strange. This is very unlike the general movie experience of, say, the 80s (although, of course, in retrospectives usually there is a focus on the more experimental movies of that decade - but let's face it, those movies were often not known to a lot of people in the times they were made).
Or just look at Horror movies, a movie like "The Evil Dead" was initially banned in Germany because it seemed to be "too brutal", but there is now much more brutality, even in "normal" movies (of course this doesn't mean Evil Dead wasn't a great movie - just giving an example).
So yeah, this cultural wave of psychedelia and "extremism" inspires me a lot.
But most importantly, there is the political inspiration. I want to create anarchist art that transforms society closer to anarchy, and I try to follow other music genres that tried to do this, such as Punk or political Rap, or activist music of the 60s - maybe not in style and words, but in intention. I can't really give examples of a specific artist that inspired me that way, because I try to take a bit from everything that falls into this spectrum.
RM: How do you think experimental hardcore differs from more mainstream, polished, arena-filling hardcore?
LE: It is rawer, deeper, darker, daring than the polished Hardcore. In fact, the polished sound isn't even "Hardcore" to me anymore, it feels more like a cash-grab by some artists, milking the audience.
There is no deeper meaning to most of the polished tracks, people listen to it zone out on drugs on big festivals and thinking they're "having a good time".
I used to say: don't trust any music that does not even change your own life and manages to get you out of your misery.
On a production level, the whole concept of Experimental Hardcore is different, with influences from Noise music, Avant-garde, Industrial, also Metal and Punk, and more... while the polished sound derives from Dance music mostly, or rather, only.
It's just the "hard" EDM, essentially.
RM: Some perceive experimental hardcore communities (breakcore/speedcore/terrorcore) as an extension of punk culture — both aesthetically (in terms of fashion and album art, for example) and values-wise. Do you agree or disagree with this? Why?
LE: Well, first there is a personal overlap of both genres. Many Experimental Hardcore producers - and listeners - came from punk and squatter scenes. Many parties were held in squats and then there were usually a lot of punks in the audience too. For example, we did a party at a squat in Hamburg, the "Rote Flora" together with a big Punk concert, or rather festival of various bands, we were in the basement with our Hardcore sound and the punks upstairs, and both audiences merged with each other.
But also above this, Hardcore is very similar to the Punk attitude, with the "Fuck All" sentiment of many Hardcore tracks, and rebellion and questioning social structures and authorities.
When I attended and played a lot of parties in the early 2000s, they were usually part of the local left wing / punk / anarchist / hippie scenes of Hamburg, Berlin or similar cities.
RM: What has attracted you to doomcore in particular in recent times?
LE: I can't even tell how I ended up "sticking" to Doomcore in recent years. I always liked Doomcore, even back in the 90s, and labels like PCP for example. I was also always very interested in Hardcore producers that used atmosphere and melodies - such as Somatic Responses for example, Christoph de Babalon, or Lasse Steen with all his various projects. I already had begun making music that focused heavily on melodies, but it was not quite Doomcore yet.
Then around 2008, I got very interested in Detroit Techno, and early House, also the first Acid House and Rave tracks, and wanted to incorporate that into my music.
So I essentially ended up doing "harder" Techno music with dark melodies - a blueprint for Doomcore, and three influences combined - and that's where I am now.
RM: Do you believe experimental hardcore has the capacity to be revolutionary?
LE: I believe any form art does not only have the potential to change the world, but that every art *changes* the world right now, and will do so in the future. For example, in the last years we had a lot of very popular "Dance" / "House" tracks that celebrated having a lot of money and fast cars, and going on an expensive vacation to St. Tropez and boasting with your money there, and so on. And I don't think this is just silly Dance music that people listen to, but it shapes their minds and people will become more superficial and money minded because of this.
But on the opposite side of this, if you do anarchist or revolutionary music, you can change society towards better goals. I think it doesn't even have to be very complicated to do so; just radical lyrics, when listened to by people, will already make a change.
And if you do music without vocals, the mindset of your production (e.g. sound filled with political charged anger) can change things.
There is that story of an opera that was performed at a theater in Belgium in the 19th century, and it triggered the Belgian revolution, and something like this can definitely happen again, with music and songs too.
RM: In your opinion, have the breakcore, terrorcore and/or speedcore scenes had their counter cultural moment? Or are these types of music still a haven for radical politics and radical people?
LE: This is a very hard question. These scenes were definitely more politically radical in the 90s, and a lot of people who listen to it today, don't care about politics anymore. But I think we hit a low point in the past, maybe the years 2005-2010, and recently there seems to be more political interest again; it's still a bit vague and hard to pinpoint, but I think it's happening. And I think there can happen a lot more in the future, while, for example, in 2008, if you made a political track you were likely to be booed at by the majority of people in these scenes. But now the scenes provide a more fertile soil for political activism again.
RM: Hardcore techno culture has often been critiqued for being dominated by cis-gendered men, although in recent years (in my eyes) this has rapidly begun to change. When you were learning your craft in the 90s and 00s, do you think that hardcore shows (both mainstream and experimental) provided an adequate platform for and a safe space for female/trans performers and attendees? Did the masculinity of gabber culture bleed into the more experimental hardcore styles?
LE: It's actually something I recently thought about again, how far ahead the Experimental Hardcore scene in parts was regarding gender and sexuality, maybe even more so than a lot of scenes today.
Essentially, the majority of people in the Experimental Hardcore scene didn't care if a DJ, or producer, or attendee was queer, trans, bi, and so on, and at Experimental Hardcore parties I've never seen someone being harassed because of that. Many people were openly queer, and most others never had a problem with that. Although, of course, I can't say whether this was always the case.
I didn't attend many mainstream Hardcore events, but the cult of masculinity was definitely there at these parties, an "I'm the toughest guy on the dance floor, the baddest Hardcore motherfucker" attitude with a lot of people, very annoying.
The experimental Hardcore scene was very different from that, and the "machismo" - combined with that wannabe "Hardness" - of mainstream Gabber was always one thing that was criticized a lot by people of the experimental scene.
RM: Have you noticed any change in the diversity of crowds/producers in recent years?
LE: Yes definitely, there seems to be a new generation of DJs and producers now, that openly challenge gender, social, ethnic, political concepts and stereotypes, and I hope this trend continues in the future.
Generally, in society, there was a lot of activism and change regarding this issues in recent times, and it seems to bleed into the Hardcore world too.
RM: With small fanbases, free party culture reigning supreme and the proclivity for filesharing, particularly within the breakcore community, experimental hardcore does not appear to be a part of the commercial music industry. If not money, what sustains experimental hardcore scenes?
LE: Yes, there was and is essentially "no money to be made" with Experimental Hardcore.
I think it's one of the interesting things about Hardcore, that those who are into it tend to be very "Hardcore" about it - they set up parties, run labels, dedicate a lot of their time and energy - also money - towards Hardcore, for years, decades, without any visible material gain. This is something very great to me.
I of course can't say what the motivation is for each individual person. I think idealism plays a huge part, maybe even romanticism of some sorts - to do something because one feels it be "right".
And for many - in the past, but also in the present - there is of course the political idea - to spread radical politics by sonic means. That is a reason to get up, get your sound out, and get involved.
RM: Can you provide some examples you’ve witnessed of experimental hardcore successfully and effectively platforming radical politics and forcing real, tangible changes in broader society?
LE: Well, the Experimental Hardcore scene was - at least culturally - almost an "island" out of society, there were not many connections to broader society. This was in part because there was a lot of opposition towards this sound be society, and even other scenes, such as mainstream Techno, or even mainstream Hardcore sometimes. Essentially, almost no one in general society knew of this music, or ideas, or - its politics.
So I don't think there is a link to tangible changes in society that could be easily described. Although I'm sure there is some influence after all.
But I think, and I hope this will change, as the interest in Experimental Hardcore and radical politics is growing within society these days.
As for groups that openly connected radical politics and Experimental Hardcore and tried to change things, I should mention Praxis Records out of UK, and the first Hateparade / Fuckparade parties in Berlin.
RM: Do you have a favourite event/rave/party series? What made it so special?
LE: I already mentioned the Hateparade / Fuckparade parties in Berlin.
These started when the Loveparade - the biggest Techno party in the world, with one million attendees at one point - more or less blacklisted Hardcore DJs and crews from their parade. So the Hateparade was set up as a reaction against that, as a parade that had a focus on Hardcore Techno instead. The first Hateparade had DJs from Praxis, DHR, Force Inc... and many other people. It was also the first Hardcore party I attented in my life, and was just a wonderful experience.
The parades the following years, also in the early 2000s were also great.
But generally party series were usually very short-lived in the 90s / early 2000s.
There were left radical parties in the North Rhine-Westphalia region for a while, that I enjoyed a lot.
And many great parties in Berlin, especially if the Praxis crew was involved in one way or another. For example, to come full circle, the Fuckparade 2000 after party with Christoph Fringeli, DJ Scud, The Berzerker, Laurent Ho and many more.
What made these parties so special? They were as special as the music itself, and gave life and reality to a sound people otherwise only listened to at homes or on their headphones.
To me, they created autonomous zones, not necessarily outside the jurisdiction of the state, but on a mental, cultural level.
I should also note that they were very extreme experiences, with loud music, dancing for 10+ hours, in basements of total darkness, fog and strobes that left you completely disoriented, mental and crazed crowds, exhaustion and a general feel of euphoria and serenity.
To me, they gave me a taste of a world that is possible if this "old world" fades one day - or rather, is pushed into the depths of history by radical activism.
RM: In your text Hardcore Techno and Anarchist Theory, you wrote that “the minds of people seem to be more active, more free again” and that there “new interest” in anarchism and the possibilities of a rave utopia. You wrote this in 2014. Do you still share this optimistic vision of dance music in 2021?
LE: It's interesting you mention this, because a while back I thought, "was I maybe too optimistic in that regard?".
But what is true that there is a growing interest in anarchism and left radical politics again, and this can be seen everywhere, even in internet culture such as memes. The meme sites I visit often have anarchist topics in memes suddenly (and while some people might say, "this sounds silly, they're just memes" - this shows there *is* interest towards anarchist ideas).
And generally, anarchism is suddenly mentioned and debated again, and these ideas pop up again, in many areas of culture and society. and this is remarkable. Because for many years, there was a total rejection and negative attitude towards anarchism in society.
Also, capitalist and statist society is in a crisis on almost every level, and there is so much new resistance suddenly; activism against racism, sexism, against the destruction of the environment... and I think, now that the "old system" is questioned in so many regards, people will begin looking for alternatives, and one of the alternatives is anarchy...
RM: I think the white skinhead image of hardcore persists within my perception of terrorcore and speedcore. This is probably mostly due to the aesthetic and musical overlap with industrial sounds and metal. And I’m not the only to feel this way! I’ve included a screenshot I pulled from Twitter recently to illustrate my point. But I also believe there is very little right-wing presence within speedcore. You mentioned in your previous email that there are links between speedcore and antifascist/left-wing organizing. Can you elaborate on this?
LE: Yes, I was referring to the roots of Speedcore in Germany, and it essentially evolved out of the punk / left wing / anarchist scenes, or at least was very connected to it.
I already gave some examples for this, like how the Speedcore scene in Germany could not have evolved without left radical squatters and organisations. Even the "unpolitical" Speedcore heads partied at squats.
This was a very complex and organic relationship that is not easy to pinpoint. I should bring up Praxis again, a label that to this day publishes a magazine, "Datacide", that heavily focuses on the connection of art and left wing / anti-fascist topics.
I can mention two left radical squats in particular, again the "Rote Flora" in Hamburg, which hosted a lot of Hardcore parties since the 90s, and similarly the "Köpi" in Berlin.
"Anti Nazi" logos and symbols were a common sight on Speedcore party flyers in Germany (and, I would assume, elsewhere, too).
There are many early Speedcore acts that gave an anti-fascist message, such as the "Psycore Kids vs. Rave Fascists" release by Amiga Shock Force on Fischkopf, or DJ Freak's "Nazis Are A Waste Of Flesh", and so on...
Personally I would associate the "Nazi Bonehead" image more with commercial Gabber, not Speedcore.
I must say it's worrying that there are indeed some "Nazi" Speedcore projects that surfaced in the last years. But generally, even the Speedcore heads who say they're not political, usually are at least very anti-fascist.
Then around 2008, I got very interested in Detroit Techno, and early House, also the first Acid House and Rave tracks, and wanted to incorporate that into my music.
So I essentially ended up doing "harder" Techno music with dark melodies - a blueprint for Doomcore, and three influences combined - and that's where I am now.
RM: Do you believe experimental hardcore has the capacity to be revolutionary?
LE: I believe any form art does not only have the potential to change the world, but that every art *changes* the world right now, and will do so in the future. For example, in the last years we had a lot of very popular "Dance" / "House" tracks that celebrated having a lot of money and fast cars, and going on an expensive vacation to St. Tropez and boasting with your money there, and so on. And I don't think this is just silly Dance music that people listen to, but it shapes their minds and people will become more superficial and money minded because of this.
But on the opposite side of this, if you do anarchist or revolutionary music, you can change society towards better goals. I think it doesn't even have to be very complicated to do so; just radical lyrics, when listened to by people, will already make a change.
And if you do music without vocals, the mindset of your production (e.g. sound filled with political charged anger) can change things.
There is that story of an opera that was performed at a theater in Belgium in the 19th century, and it triggered the Belgian revolution, and something like this can definitely happen again, with music and songs too.
RM: In your opinion, have the breakcore, terrorcore and/or speedcore scenes had their counter cultural moment? Or are these types of music still a haven for radical politics and radical people?
LE: This is a very hard question. These scenes were definitely more politically radical in the 90s, and a lot of people who listen to it today, don't care about politics anymore. But I think we hit a low point in the past, maybe the years 2005-2010, and recently there seems to be more political interest again; it's still a bit vague and hard to pinpoint, but I think it's happening. And I think there can happen a lot more in the future, while, for example, in 2008, if you made a political track you were likely to be booed at by the majority of people in these scenes. But now the scenes provide a more fertile soil for political activism again.
RM: Hardcore techno culture has often been critiqued for being dominated by cis-gendered men, although in recent years (in my eyes) this has rapidly begun to change. When you were learning your craft in the 90s and 00s, do you think that hardcore shows (both mainstream and experimental) provided an adequate platform for and a safe space for female/trans performers and attendees? Did the masculinity of gabber culture bleed into the more experimental hardcore styles?
LE: It's actually something I recently thought about again, how far ahead the Experimental Hardcore scene in parts was regarding gender and sexuality, maybe even more so than a lot of scenes today.
Essentially, the majority of people in the Experimental Hardcore scene didn't care if a DJ, or producer, or attendee was queer, trans, bi, and so on, and at Experimental Hardcore parties I've never seen someone being harassed because of that. Many people were openly queer, and most others never had a problem with that. Although, of course, I can't say whether this was always the case.
I didn't attend many mainstream Hardcore events, but the cult of masculinity was definitely there at these parties, an "I'm the toughest guy on the dance floor, the baddest Hardcore motherfucker" attitude with a lot of people, very annoying.
The experimental Hardcore scene was very different from that, and the "machismo" - combined with that wannabe "Hardness" - of mainstream Gabber was always one thing that was criticized a lot by people of the experimental scene.
RM: Have you noticed any change in the diversity of crowds/producers in recent years?
LE: Yes definitely, there seems to be a new generation of DJs and producers now, that openly challenge gender, social, ethnic, political concepts and stereotypes, and I hope this trend continues in the future.
Generally, in society, there was a lot of activism and change regarding this issues in recent times, and it seems to bleed into the Hardcore world too.
RM: With small fanbases, free party culture reigning supreme and the proclivity for filesharing, particularly within the breakcore community, experimental hardcore does not appear to be a part of the commercial music industry. If not money, what sustains experimental hardcore scenes?
LE: Yes, there was and is essentially "no money to be made" with Experimental Hardcore.
I think it's one of the interesting things about Hardcore, that those who are into it tend to be very "Hardcore" about it - they set up parties, run labels, dedicate a lot of their time and energy - also money - towards Hardcore, for years, decades, without any visible material gain. This is something very great to me.
I of course can't say what the motivation is for each individual person. I think idealism plays a huge part, maybe even romanticism of some sorts - to do something because one feels it be "right".
And for many - in the past, but also in the present - there is of course the political idea - to spread radical politics by sonic means. That is a reason to get up, get your sound out, and get involved.
RM: Can you provide some examples you’ve witnessed of experimental hardcore successfully and effectively platforming radical politics and forcing real, tangible changes in broader society?
LE: Well, the Experimental Hardcore scene was - at least culturally - almost an "island" out of society, there were not many connections to broader society. This was in part because there was a lot of opposition towards this sound be society, and even other scenes, such as mainstream Techno, or even mainstream Hardcore sometimes. Essentially, almost no one in general society knew of this music, or ideas, or - its politics.
So I don't think there is a link to tangible changes in society that could be easily described. Although I'm sure there is some influence after all.
But I think, and I hope this will change, as the interest in Experimental Hardcore and radical politics is growing within society these days.
As for groups that openly connected radical politics and Experimental Hardcore and tried to change things, I should mention Praxis Records out of UK, and the first Hateparade / Fuckparade parties in Berlin.
RM: Do you have a favourite event/rave/party series? What made it so special?
LE: I already mentioned the Hateparade / Fuckparade parties in Berlin.
These started when the Loveparade - the biggest Techno party in the world, with one million attendees at one point - more or less blacklisted Hardcore DJs and crews from their parade. So the Hateparade was set up as a reaction against that, as a parade that had a focus on Hardcore Techno instead. The first Hateparade had DJs from Praxis, DHR, Force Inc... and many other people. It was also the first Hardcore party I attented in my life, and was just a wonderful experience.
The parades the following years, also in the early 2000s were also great.
But generally party series were usually very short-lived in the 90s / early 2000s.
There were left radical parties in the North Rhine-Westphalia region for a while, that I enjoyed a lot.
And many great parties in Berlin, especially if the Praxis crew was involved in one way or another. For example, to come full circle, the Fuckparade 2000 after party with Christoph Fringeli, DJ Scud, The Berzerker, Laurent Ho and many more.
What made these parties so special? They were as special as the music itself, and gave life and reality to a sound people otherwise only listened to at homes or on their headphones.
To me, they created autonomous zones, not necessarily outside the jurisdiction of the state, but on a mental, cultural level.
I should also note that they were very extreme experiences, with loud music, dancing for 10+ hours, in basements of total darkness, fog and strobes that left you completely disoriented, mental and crazed crowds, exhaustion and a general feel of euphoria and serenity.
To me, they gave me a taste of a world that is possible if this "old world" fades one day - or rather, is pushed into the depths of history by radical activism.
RM: In your text Hardcore Techno and Anarchist Theory, you wrote that “the minds of people seem to be more active, more free again” and that there “new interest” in anarchism and the possibilities of a rave utopia. You wrote this in 2014. Do you still share this optimistic vision of dance music in 2021?
LE: It's interesting you mention this, because a while back I thought, "was I maybe too optimistic in that regard?".
But what is true that there is a growing interest in anarchism and left radical politics again, and this can be seen everywhere, even in internet culture such as memes. The meme sites I visit often have anarchist topics in memes suddenly (and while some people might say, "this sounds silly, they're just memes" - this shows there *is* interest towards anarchist ideas).
And generally, anarchism is suddenly mentioned and debated again, and these ideas pop up again, in many areas of culture and society. and this is remarkable. Because for many years, there was a total rejection and negative attitude towards anarchism in society.
Also, capitalist and statist society is in a crisis on almost every level, and there is so much new resistance suddenly; activism against racism, sexism, against the destruction of the environment... and I think, now that the "old system" is questioned in so many regards, people will begin looking for alternatives, and one of the alternatives is anarchy...
RM: I think the white skinhead image of hardcore persists within my perception of terrorcore and speedcore. This is probably mostly due to the aesthetic and musical overlap with industrial sounds and metal. And I’m not the only to feel this way! I’ve included a screenshot I pulled from Twitter recently to illustrate my point. But I also believe there is very little right-wing presence within speedcore. You mentioned in your previous email that there are links between speedcore and antifascist/left-wing organizing. Can you elaborate on this?
LE: Yes, I was referring to the roots of Speedcore in Germany, and it essentially evolved out of the punk / left wing / anarchist scenes, or at least was very connected to it.
I already gave some examples for this, like how the Speedcore scene in Germany could not have evolved without left radical squatters and organisations. Even the "unpolitical" Speedcore heads partied at squats.
This was a very complex and organic relationship that is not easy to pinpoint. I should bring up Praxis again, a label that to this day publishes a magazine, "Datacide", that heavily focuses on the connection of art and left wing / anti-fascist topics.
I can mention two left radical squats in particular, again the "Rote Flora" in Hamburg, which hosted a lot of Hardcore parties since the 90s, and similarly the "Köpi" in Berlin.
"Anti Nazi" logos and symbols were a common sight on Speedcore party flyers in Germany (and, I would assume, elsewhere, too).
There are many early Speedcore acts that gave an anti-fascist message, such as the "Psycore Kids vs. Rave Fascists" release by Amiga Shock Force on Fischkopf, or DJ Freak's "Nazis Are A Waste Of Flesh", and so on...
Personally I would associate the "Nazi Bonehead" image more with commercial Gabber, not Speedcore.
I must say it's worrying that there are indeed some "Nazi" Speedcore projects that surfaced in the last years. But generally, even the Speedcore heads who say they're not political, usually are at least very anti-fascist.
